EP 3: Dealing with the Traumatic Loss of a Child with C.J. and Greg Malson (Part 3)

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury.

So, if we can sort of, let's let's refocus a little bit about and looking at it from the perspective of a person who has lost a son or daughter, or a parent out of too early or a or a, somebody who's tragically suddenly lost somebody that they care about. What are the tools that you used to get through this, to the extent that a person can get through something like this? You mentioned the things that come to mind what you've described so far, time, the things support. togetherness, the absence of blame, the absence of criticism, of negativity, at least as it terms in terms of, you know, we may blame somebody outside of the group. But inside the group, we are together and united and unified. You talked about people and friends, and connecting with other people, you talked about a grief counselor? Are there other tools? Are there other things that might have been helpful to you, you mentioned faith, in terms of getting through something like this.

I think that, you know, everyone's faith is, is so different. And so personal. And as I mentioned, we we do not belong to a congregation. But I think as a family, and at home, we are very spiritual. And I have, I've had my moments that I been mad at God. And don't understand what his plan is. But I think that I try, and it's still a work in progress, to believe that it didn't happen for no reason. And I have faith that I will be reunited with him one day. And that doesn't have to, to me, it doesn't have to be, you know, sitting down with a Bible on a daily basis or anything like that. It to me is, I have constant conversations with God. And I constantly ask him to lead me, you know, what am I supposed to do with this? I've done some mission work in the past. And so I kind of feel like all of that brought me to this place, and has given me the strength and the ability to see it as as a lesson as to what's important in life. And I think we had a pretty good grasp on that beforehand. But I am compelled to talk about it and talk about grief and talk about how we handle it. And so I do kind of feel like God has given me a little bit of a purpose. You know, we we don't sweep it under the rug. You know, we talk very openly and honestly, about it. We've not sainted Ian, Ian was a character, you know, I mean, and we, you know, we don't try and make it sound like he was perfect in any way, shape, or form. He was a very wonderful, imperfect. And I think that the great thing about time is it doesn't heal anything. But as it goes further and further, what happens is, the grief gets softer. And you learn to appreciate every day you learn to navigate the hard days. You learn to appreciate the good that is still in your life. And I know and I I know I speak for Greg as well, is. There's so many so many great things that we have to look forward to on our life. You know, our daughter has been married since this happened. She's now expecting her first child and our first grandchild and I know in my heart and feel every day in, and I know he would not want us to live in the pain. It's not who he was, he was the funnest guy in the room, he was, you know, he would want us to carry on with our lives. And so I think that gives me a great purpose in not wallowing in the grief. And, again, we all handle it, we all for have our own different ways that we handle it, we have our own ways of memorializing him. And, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing to watch your children do things that, you know, is because of en. And I think that once you can get to the point where you can let the pain of what happened. subside a little, and be grateful for the 2001 and three quarters years that we had with him and embrace you know, who he was and the stories that we get to still hear and, and all that. I feel like, that's God, I feel like him giving me the ability to carry on, has given me the ability to not question it's not mine to question, the answers will all become apparent one day. And you have to wait for that day, you have to wait, your turn. And I'll be reading reunited with Ian, my parents and every other people person that I've lost in my life. And that's what you hold on to. How

long is it after a tragedy after you lose somebody out of water? As you say? How long is it before just the absolute agony of it subsides enough for you to laugh at a movie, or to hum along to a song or to just have fun?

Again, I think everyone you know, every situation is is different and unique. Surprisingly enough for us, and all the people that came together in his honor and everything and we had a party afterwards or, you know, get together afterwards. And laughing and everything was was part of the grave. Because he was such a funny. So I think just knowing and holding on to the fact that not every day is going to be a bad day. And learning to not feel guilty when you have a good day. And you have good things happening in your life.

Is that a thing? Like if you if you find yourself smiling if you find yourself laughing is that if you find yourself enjoying something, the way something looks, tastes sounds that you that you feel like Oh man, I'm betraying my love for my child

here. Is that time? I mean, there is time. Yeah. And

it's, it's usually close in. Because you're you're kind of overwhelmed by the other part of the loss. But the, the kind of it's not getting back to normal because you have a you have a new normal now. But it's not, you know, if I was to even try to put a timeline, you know, it's a period of months. And it just it changes more than anything I think what it is it doesn't get you know, the your ability to laugh and things when it comes back. Because you know that you've got to one you got to you know, keep on living that, you know, that's CJ said that, you know, II wouldn't want you to just lay down and roll over in a corner and that be the end of it. So early on is just a whole different story. Everything is just just in your head is just for me it was it was just all backwards. It's not supposed to happen. This you know, what kind of God do I have that you know 21 year olds that die that shouldn't be that way? And that's just an it's more anger than anything you know that you know it AB guilt, because I couldn't do anything, you know, didn't give me a chance to do something, you know, you didn't call and say something's fixed and a half and you helped me. So you get, you know, part of its guilt part of it is just, you know, the shock of it, but it does wear off. I mean, it goes away, and it's, it doesn't take forever. What is forever are my thoughts about him and think I still cry all the time. Not constantly crying over it, but I'll find myself thinking about him. And I cry, and I, you know, that's, that's what I do. I mean, you know, because I'm sad, because I don't have him. Can't talk to him. And, in, in law, I, you know, I can't imagine that ever really changing because, and they're not sad thoughts. I mean, it doesn't need I don't, I'm not crying because I'm necessarily unhappy or anything, it's, you know, I've, I just miss him. So, so much. That, ya know, you end up crying, and that's the way that it manifests itself. So, you know, the, all the good things outweigh those times? Absolutely. I mean, you know, all like I said, it's the people that he touched in the, that are touching us now, and the things he did in the pictures, and all of that is still so alive, that, you know, and I thought about this the other day, he's always going to be 21, I was thinking about that I'm like, I don't age him, in my mind, I wouldn't know how to, you know, advanced age him. So he's, he's always going to be 21. So when I'm, you know, 80 years old, I'm still going to have a 21 year old that I think about, which is, I'm like, well, that's, that's kind of kind of neat a way, you know, that he, that that part of we frozen in time, and his, you know, this personality will never change, you know, he's not going to become a grumpy middle aged guy, you know. So, you know, I think about those things, just when I think about him, just because I think the bottom all the time. But it's not, like I said, the, you know, the, the grief gets better. You don't, you don't, I mean, you don't really wallow in it, unless you let yourself do it. And it's not a difficult task not to, like I said, it's, you know, you're, you're constantly concentrations should be on the good things and things like that. And, you know, sometimes I think about all the bad things too. But I can get, I'll get those out of my head, that's, you know, I'm, this is not my time to be thinking about the bad things or whatever it is, but, you know, my advice for people would be it does get better taught and it is time doesn't go away, you don't forget. And it's not a disservice to the, to those that you'd love that you lost. You're not betraying them. Because I don't think that there's anyone that would that would really want their, their loved ones to be to suffer in pain, emotional pain, or whatever for their lives because they lost theirs. If that, you know, the early on, I went to the therapist or whatever it was, is very helpful, very, very helpful. My, its ability to help me was short lived, you know, maybe, I don't know, a month, two months, once a week, or once every two weeks, or whatever it was, but it was very helpful. And it was just kind of the listening. You know, for you know, CJ, I had CJ and she would always listen, always, but it was nice to have someone that just, you know, someone else listening that doesn't have to say any, you know, just just kind of listen and she would you know, she had great insight. Very,

she hasn't she I think, you know, she has given me so many tools. Yeah.

And it's she's just it was so pleasant and nice that that was helpful for me. But it was only helpful to a certain extent. And it didn't become unhelpful in any way. It's just that there just came a time it was a natural. I think I've gotten what I've gotten out of this. Oh, that's gonna resolve Exactly. It's resolved itself that this the need for that is no longer there. So, you know, and that was the right call for me at the time. So, you know, it was

still Let me ask you guys each individually this this. So let's say there's somebody in Oregon and Nevada, in Ohio, and Atlanta, Alabama, in New York or Canada or Mexico or wherever, and they're in there listening and they're in a situation where they are in the darkest part of this, they have just received confirmation and they have finished with their task list. They are, have lost somebody they care about. They are where you were in that condo, you know, a few years ago, you know, what would you what would you say to them, you know, in that moment, what would you say to them to, to provide them some kind of help or pathway or plan.

At that point, you are literally living minute to minute, and then it becomes five minutes. And then on and on. You just put one foot in front of itself for a while. And know that that's okay. And you have to feel it, when you feel it. Building up and pressing things down, I think is probably one of the worst things you can do. Because it does come back to bite you later, if you don't feel the emotions when they're present. Again, you know, it, I still have those days. And I've learned that I'll will probably still have those days from time to time the rest of my life, but they get fewer and further between. And first thing is survival. Just survive it just you know that one minute at a time. And because at that minute it feels unsurvivable. And have a resource. I mean, you know, it doesn't really matter who it is, you know, be it your spouse, be at your best friend via a clergy member via a grief counselor. I think just having at least one person that is a complete and total safezone. Like I said, my best friend came down from Virginia, and just took charge of the whole situation. And I knew that whatever I couldn't handle, she would handle for me. And it it got me through, you know, it got me through those first days of not knowing what direction to turn in, of going from, you know, screaming wailing, I would go out my car and sit and hit the the steering wheel and scrape the top of my lungs. Because I think the holding it in just becomes more toxic. And again, you know it, and then it just slowly starts getting less and less that you feel that, you know explosive, grief and anger and just all of it. But I think acknowledging it and dealing with it is the best thing you can do. I'm a reader. So I read a lot. And there was a lot of good information out there to be had. There were books that I picked up and knew immediately was just not what I needed. I joined a grief support group online. And again, I rapidly realized that I did not have as much in common with that particular group. And it therefore was not helpful to me to hear other people's stories, because that is one thing that you're gonna get a lot from people around you as everybody has a story. And the one thing that you cannot do is compare grief. There is no comparison. everybody's situation is different. And I think not not trying to fix things for people. In those early days, it's unfixable. I think just loving somebody just loving somebody. You look for those people in your life that can get you through it by just being there, handling the small things. Have people come clean my house I had, you know, people that just did things that made life It's simpler for us and gave us the space to handle our feelings and feel our feelings and whatnot.

Well, Greg, what would you say to somebody, you know,

she, when I started, bump edge, she started during exactly where I was going to pick up was, it's having somebody who can help you through that part, my brother came down from Washington State. In, he's not, he's not an emotional guy at all. But that was such a comfort to me. Because of my relationship with him, you know, he's not, you know, he's not looking to be my therapist, or he's not looking for that. He's just there, taking care of things that, you know, that I may mention, or in passing, or whatever it may be. And just being there to, to listen, more than anything. And just like I said, it's, it's who you surround yourself with, is how you're going to survive that initial part. Because it's just so just heart crushing, you're, you're just, you're just crushed. And you really don't, you know, like I said, That's why some of the greatest gifts, so the small things that you don't have to want you to worry about, it's, you know, you don't have time to cut the grass, you know, I can't get out there and do that I don't, you know, I don't want to I you know, and then you know, there's people who pick up on things and they, you know, get things done. And it's, it's a lot of small things that help you get through it, but it's who you surround yourself with, during that time is I think it's just, it's critical. You know, and as time goes on, you know, educate yourself, you get you pick, you read 20 books, and you may get no ideas from five of them, and you may get five ideas from one of them and, and you're picking and choosing what you're what you're getting out of them. And overall, it's very beneficial. Even if you got one thing out of all 20 books, but there's

value in searching for consolation or, or something, or some kind of emotional

stability, stability, right. They

always say, you know, it's a club, nobody wants to be a member of. But what I was shocked about was how many people we end up knowing who have lost children. And I think within our friend group right now, there are three people that have lost a child. And some of those are new friends, you know, that we've been introduced to over the past four years. And some of them are not our next door neighbor, when we first moved into our home, lost their son, it was in the military, and, you know, their family dissolved, and the father ended up killing himself three years later. And I think that right there was my focus was to not allow that to happen to our family. And so, you know, you kind of Garner something from each person who has actually been through it, and it is a comfort to have somebody else in your life that has been through it, because they are the only people that truly understand what you're going through. So you know, some people it is very helpful to join a group of like minded people and like experience people, so, you know, everyone's different, and everyone has to figure out for them what is the best thing but you know, get out there and and take an active role. And whatever recovery you can, you can make from your situation. And you don't have to do it tomorrow. It took me probably two years. It was really shortly after we resolved resolved our case with you that it hit me the hardest. It took two years. I maintained and managed. I felt like the whole situation very well. And then after, it was almost like the completion of the whole situation is when I allowed myself the space to grieve and it was not a pretty it was not pretty There was a bout a week's time frame, that I literally questioned whether I was going to have to go into a facility. At that point, is when I actually saw psychiatric help opposed to just therapy. And I just thank God that I had the tools at that point to recognize that and take action and, and fix it. So, you know, again, it's not linear, there are no stages to grief. And I think that that is a an American concept, that we have to put things in order, you know, in our minds, and that's not how it really is, you know, there are not steps to follow in grief. Grief is a life of its own, and you don't pick and choose, a lot of times, I can physically tell when my emotions are building, and I need that release, I have a playlist of songs, that when I really need that cry, I go to that playlist. And it it's hard. I mean, there's songs that sound like they were written about a man. And they evoke that emotion that I have to get out. I don't bottle up anything anymore. And, and some of that, you know, is communally, but a lot of it is also private. So I just, I think it's very, very important to be aware of your mental health, when you're going through something like this, and which, again, is another thing in the United States that, you know, a lot of people are afraid of. But I say, you know, don't be, you've been through the worst thing that's probably ever going to happen to you in your life. And to think that you are 100% mentally well, after this, you're not. And, you know, it's freeing to be able to recognize that and own that. And, you know, fix it the best way that you can, because, again, your loved one wants you to live with that. They wouldn't want you to live in a state of ill mental health.

Well, guys, thank you so much for being here. I can't tell you how much I

really appreciate you having feeling like we had something to say.

I do think you have something to say I think that you have a lot to say about building a family about surviving tragic tragedy, and about holding the family together after tragedy. And I think people can learn a lot from and I hope they will. So thank you again for joining us.

Thank you, Clark. Thank you for joining us,

and we'll see you next time.

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury.

So, if we can sort of, let's let's refocus a little bit about and looking at it from the perspective of a person who has lost a son or daughter, or a parent out of too early or a or a, somebody who's tragically suddenly lost somebody that they care about. What are the tools that you used to get through this, to the extent that a person can get through something like this? You mentioned the things that come to mind what you've described so far, time, the things support. togetherness, the absence of blame, the absence of criticism, of negativity, at least as it terms in terms of, you know, we may blame somebody outside of the group. But inside the group, we are together and united and unified. You talked about people and friends, and connecting with other people, you talked about a grief counselor? Are there other tools? Are there other things that might have been helpful to you, you mentioned faith, in terms of getting through something like this.

I think that, you know, everyone's faith is, is so different. And so personal. And as I mentioned, we we do not belong to a congregation. But I think as a family, and at home, we are very spiritual. And I have, I've had my moments that I been mad at God. And don't understand what his plan is. But I think that I try, and it's still a work in progress, to believe that it didn't happen for no reason. And I have faith that I will be reunited with him one day. And that doesn't have to, to me, it doesn't have to be, you know, sitting down with a Bible on a daily basis or anything like that. It to me is, I have constant conversations with God. And I constantly ask him to lead me, you know, what am I supposed to do with this? I've done some mission work in the past. And so I kind of feel like all of that brought me to this place, and has given me the strength and the ability to see it as as a lesson as to what's important in life. And I think we had a pretty good grasp on that beforehand. But I am compelled to talk about it and talk about grief and talk about how we handle it. And so I do kind of feel like God has given me a little bit of a purpose. You know, we we don't sweep it under the rug. You know, we talk very openly and honestly, about it. We've not sainted Ian, Ian was a character, you know, I mean, and we, you know, we don't try and make it sound like he was perfect in any way, shape, or form. He was a very wonderful, imperfect. And I think that the great thing about time is it doesn't heal anything. But as it goes further and further, what happens is, the grief gets softer. And you learn to appreciate every day you learn to navigate the hard days. You learn to appreciate the good that is still in your life. And I know and I I know I speak for Greg as well, is. There's so many so many great things that we have to look forward to on our life. You know, our daughter has been married since this happened. She's now expecting her first child and our first grandchild and I know in my heart and feel every day in, and I know he would not want us to live in the pain. It's not who he was, he was the funnest guy in the room, he was, you know, he would want us to carry on with our lives. And so I think that gives me a great purpose in not wallowing in the grief. And, again, we all handle it, we all for have our own different ways that we handle it, we have our own ways of memorializing him. And, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing to watch your children do things that, you know, is because of en. And I think that once you can get to the point where you can let the pain of what happened. subside a little, and be grateful for the 2001 and three quarters years that we had with him and embrace you know, who he was and the stories that we get to still hear and, and all that. I feel like, that's God, I feel like him giving me the ability to carry on, has given me the ability to not question it's not mine to question, the answers will all become apparent one day. And you have to wait for that day, you have to wait, your turn. And I'll be reading reunited with Ian, my parents and every other people person that I've lost in my life. And that's what you hold on to. How

long is it after a tragedy after you lose somebody out of water? As you say? How long is it before just the absolute agony of it subsides enough for you to laugh at a movie, or to hum along to a song or to just have fun?

Again, I think everyone you know, every situation is is different and unique. Surprisingly enough for us, and all the people that came together in his honor and everything and we had a party afterwards or, you know, get together afterwards. And laughing and everything was was part of the grave. Because he was such a funny. So I think just knowing and holding on to the fact that not every day is going to be a bad day. And learning to not feel guilty when you have a good day. And you have good things happening in your life.

Is that a thing? Like if you if you find yourself smiling if you find yourself laughing is that if you find yourself enjoying something, the way something looks, tastes sounds that you that you feel like Oh man, I'm betraying my love for my child

here. Is that time? I mean, there is time. Yeah. And

it's, it's usually close in. Because you're you're kind of overwhelmed by the other part of the loss. But the, the kind of it's not getting back to normal because you have a you have a new normal now. But it's not, you know, if I was to even try to put a timeline, you know, it's a period of months. And it just it changes more than anything I think what it is it doesn't get you know, the your ability to laugh and things when it comes back. Because you know that you've got to one you got to you know, keep on living that, you know, that's CJ said that, you know, II wouldn't want you to just lay down and roll over in a corner and that be the end of it. So early on is just a whole different story. Everything is just just in your head is just for me it was it was just all backwards. It's not supposed to happen. This you know, what kind of God do I have that you know 21 year olds that die that shouldn't be that way? And that's just an it's more anger than anything you know that you know it AB guilt, because I couldn't do anything, you know, didn't give me a chance to do something, you know, you didn't call and say something's fixed and a half and you helped me. So you get, you know, part of its guilt part of it is just, you know, the shock of it, but it does wear off. I mean, it goes away, and it's, it doesn't take forever. What is forever are my thoughts about him and think I still cry all the time. Not constantly crying over it, but I'll find myself thinking about him. And I cry, and I, you know, that's, that's what I do. I mean, you know, because I'm sad, because I don't have him. Can't talk to him. And, in, in law, I, you know, I can't imagine that ever really changing because, and they're not sad thoughts. I mean, it doesn't need I don't, I'm not crying because I'm necessarily unhappy or anything, it's, you know, I've, I just miss him. So, so much. That, ya know, you end up crying, and that's the way that it manifests itself. So, you know, the, all the good things outweigh those times? Absolutely. I mean, you know, all like I said, it's the people that he touched in the, that are touching us now, and the things he did in the pictures, and all of that is still so alive, that, you know, and I thought about this the other day, he's always going to be 21, I was thinking about that I'm like, I don't age him, in my mind, I wouldn't know how to, you know, advanced age him. So he's, he's always going to be 21. So when I'm, you know, 80 years old, I'm still going to have a 21 year old that I think about, which is, I'm like, well, that's, that's kind of kind of neat a way, you know, that he, that that part of we frozen in time, and his, you know, this personality will never change, you know, he's not going to become a grumpy middle aged guy, you know. So, you know, I think about those things, just when I think about him, just because I think the bottom all the time. But it's not, like I said, the, you know, the, the grief gets better. You don't, you don't, I mean, you don't really wallow in it, unless you let yourself do it. And it's not a difficult task not to, like I said, it's, you know, you're, you're constantly concentrations should be on the good things and things like that. And, you know, sometimes I think about all the bad things too. But I can get, I'll get those out of my head, that's, you know, I'm, this is not my time to be thinking about the bad things or whatever it is, but, you know, my advice for people would be it does get better taught and it is time doesn't go away, you don't forget. And it's not a disservice to the, to those that you'd love that you lost. You're not betraying them. Because I don't think that there's anyone that would that would really want their, their loved ones to be to suffer in pain, emotional pain, or whatever for their lives because they lost theirs. If that, you know, the early on, I went to the therapist or whatever it was, is very helpful, very, very helpful. My, its ability to help me was short lived, you know, maybe, I don't know, a month, two months, once a week, or once every two weeks, or whatever it was, but it was very helpful. And it was just kind of the listening. You know, for you know, CJ, I had CJ and she would always listen, always, but it was nice to have someone that just, you know, someone else listening that doesn't have to say any, you know, just just kind of listen and she would you know, she had great insight. Very,

she hasn't she I think, you know, she has given me so many tools. Yeah.

And it's she's just it was so pleasant and nice that that was helpful for me. But it was only helpful to a certain extent. And it didn't become unhelpful in any way. It's just that there just came a time it was a natural. I think I've gotten what I've gotten out of this. Oh, that's gonna resolve Exactly. It's resolved itself that this the need for that is no longer there. So, you know, and that was the right call for me at the time. So, you know, it was

still Let me ask you guys each individually this this. So let's say there's somebody in Oregon and Nevada, in Ohio, and Atlanta, Alabama, in New York or Canada or Mexico or wherever, and they're in there listening and they're in a situation where they are in the darkest part of this, they have just received confirmation and they have finished with their task list. They are, have lost somebody they care about. They are where you were in that condo, you know, a few years ago, you know, what would you what would you say to them, you know, in that moment, what would you say to them to, to provide them some kind of help or pathway or plan.

At that point, you are literally living minute to minute, and then it becomes five minutes. And then on and on. You just put one foot in front of itself for a while. And know that that's okay. And you have to feel it, when you feel it. Building up and pressing things down, I think is probably one of the worst things you can do. Because it does come back to bite you later, if you don't feel the emotions when they're present. Again, you know, it, I still have those days. And I've learned that I'll will probably still have those days from time to time the rest of my life, but they get fewer and further between. And first thing is survival. Just survive it just you know that one minute at a time. And because at that minute it feels unsurvivable. And have a resource. I mean, you know, it doesn't really matter who it is, you know, be it your spouse, be at your best friend via a clergy member via a grief counselor. I think just having at least one person that is a complete and total safezone. Like I said, my best friend came down from Virginia, and just took charge of the whole situation. And I knew that whatever I couldn't handle, she would handle for me. And it it got me through, you know, it got me through those first days of not knowing what direction to turn in, of going from, you know, screaming wailing, I would go out my car and sit and hit the the steering wheel and scrape the top of my lungs. Because I think the holding it in just becomes more toxic. And again, you know it, and then it just slowly starts getting less and less that you feel that, you know explosive, grief and anger and just all of it. But I think acknowledging it and dealing with it is the best thing you can do. I'm a reader. So I read a lot. And there was a lot of good information out there to be had. There were books that I picked up and knew immediately was just not what I needed. I joined a grief support group online. And again, I rapidly realized that I did not have as much in common with that particular group. And it therefore was not helpful to me to hear other people's stories, because that is one thing that you're gonna get a lot from people around you as everybody has a story. And the one thing that you cannot do is compare grief. There is no comparison. everybody's situation is different. And I think not not trying to fix things for people. In those early days, it's unfixable. I think just loving somebody just loving somebody. You look for those people in your life that can get you through it by just being there, handling the small things. Have people come clean my house I had, you know, people that just did things that made life It's simpler for us and gave us the space to handle our feelings and feel our feelings and whatnot.

Well, Greg, what would you say to somebody, you know,

she, when I started, bump edge, she started during exactly where I was going to pick up was, it's having somebody who can help you through that part, my brother came down from Washington State. In, he's not, he's not an emotional guy at all. But that was such a comfort to me. Because of my relationship with him, you know, he's not, you know, he's not looking to be my therapist, or he's not looking for that. He's just there, taking care of things that, you know, that I may mention, or in passing, or whatever it may be. And just being there to, to listen, more than anything. And just like I said, it's, it's who you surround yourself with, is how you're going to survive that initial part. Because it's just so just heart crushing, you're, you're just, you're just crushed. And you really don't, you know, like I said, That's why some of the greatest gifts, so the small things that you don't have to want you to worry about, it's, you know, you don't have time to cut the grass, you know, I can't get out there and do that I don't, you know, I don't want to I you know, and then you know, there's people who pick up on things and they, you know, get things done. And it's, it's a lot of small things that help you get through it, but it's who you surround yourself with, during that time is I think it's just, it's critical. You know, and as time goes on, you know, educate yourself, you get you pick, you read 20 books, and you may get no ideas from five of them, and you may get five ideas from one of them and, and you're picking and choosing what you're what you're getting out of them. And overall, it's very beneficial. Even if you got one thing out of all 20 books, but there's

value in searching for consolation or, or something, or some kind of emotional

stability, stability, right. They

always say, you know, it's a club, nobody wants to be a member of. But what I was shocked about was how many people we end up knowing who have lost children. And I think within our friend group right now, there are three people that have lost a child. And some of those are new friends, you know, that we've been introduced to over the past four years. And some of them are not our next door neighbor, when we first moved into our home, lost their son, it was in the military, and, you know, their family dissolved, and the father ended up killing himself three years later. And I think that right there was my focus was to not allow that to happen to our family. And so, you know, you kind of Garner something from each person who has actually been through it, and it is a comfort to have somebody else in your life that has been through it, because they are the only people that truly understand what you're going through. So you know, some people it is very helpful to join a group of like minded people and like experience people, so, you know, everyone's different, and everyone has to figure out for them what is the best thing but you know, get out there and and take an active role. And whatever recovery you can, you can make from your situation. And you don't have to do it tomorrow. It took me probably two years. It was really shortly after we resolved resolved our case with you that it hit me the hardest. It took two years. I maintained and managed. I felt like the whole situation very well. And then after, it was almost like the completion of the whole situation is when I allowed myself the space to grieve and it was not a pretty it was not pretty There was a bout a week's time frame, that I literally questioned whether I was going to have to go into a facility. At that point, is when I actually saw psychiatric help opposed to just therapy. And I just thank God that I had the tools at that point to recognize that and take action and, and fix it. So, you know, again, it's not linear, there are no stages to grief. And I think that that is a an American concept, that we have to put things in order, you know, in our minds, and that's not how it really is, you know, there are not steps to follow in grief. Grief is a life of its own, and you don't pick and choose, a lot of times, I can physically tell when my emotions are building, and I need that release, I have a playlist of songs, that when I really need that cry, I go to that playlist. And it it's hard. I mean, there's songs that sound like they were written about a man. And they evoke that emotion that I have to get out. I don't bottle up anything anymore. And, and some of that, you know, is communally, but a lot of it is also private. So I just, I think it's very, very important to be aware of your mental health, when you're going through something like this, and which, again, is another thing in the United States that, you know, a lot of people are afraid of. But I say, you know, don't be, you've been through the worst thing that's probably ever going to happen to you in your life. And to think that you are 100% mentally well, after this, you're not. And, you know, it's freeing to be able to recognize that and own that. And, you know, fix it the best way that you can, because, again, your loved one wants you to live with that. They wouldn't want you to live in a state of ill mental health.

Well, guys, thank you so much for being here. I can't tell you how much I

really appreciate you having feeling like we had something to say.

I do think you have something to say I think that you have a lot to say about building a family about surviving tragic tragedy, and about holding the family together after tragedy. And I think people can learn a lot from and I hope they will. So thank you again for joining us.

Thank you, Clark. Thank you for joining us,

and we'll see you next time.