EP 41: The Importance of Experience When Finding an Attorney for Your Catastrophic Injury (Part 4 w/ Jeff Watson)

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury.

Welcome back to catastrophic comeback. Jeff, I'd like to talk to you now a little bit about okay, a person has made a decision, they've suffered a catastrophic accident, they think there may be some type of recovery available to them through worker's comp or through liability. And they're trying to net they understand from the last segment that they need to call somebody. The next question is, who do they call, right? And we're not saying to call us necessarily, we're just saying, generally, what are the types of things that they need to consider? Like, I'm thinking about it, if I'm a person in that situation, and I'm trying to decide, I'm like, What do I do what I make up make a decision based on billboards, I'm gonna, like this thing, I'm gonna make a decision based on, you know, TV commercials radio, like how much was to decide who's good and who's not, who knows what they're doing? Who can help me? So let's talk about for a few minutes about qualifications. Can you tell me about, you know, you do these kinds of cases, you know, you do these kinds of cases, you're committed to helping people who are who have been through these situations. And just, in our firm, for example, we have a specific division of our firm that is devoted to nothing but exceptional cases of catastrophic cases, and you lead that division. And so can you talk to me about your qualifications? I mean, I know you as a modest person, I don't and I'm not looking, I just want to just like for you to tell, like what in your background, what in your history has led you to a place where you feel like you can help people that are in these types of situations.

So I, you know, when I got into college, I worked as a senior claims adjuster for an insurance company, a major insurance company, for several years, handle claims, adjusted claims, property damage, injury, catastrophic injuries. So I dealt with it from the insurance side of negotiating the claims, and investigating. That also gave me an understanding of of insurance policies and what these policies will and won't cover and what the exceptions are, and how to, you know, how to read them and know, you know, that this coverage would apply when someone else would know that coverage would apply. You know, after that, going to different schooling that I went to law school, I came out of there and did insurance defense work, which was natural for me, because I'd been a claims adjuster. Well, you mean insurance defense where so insurance defense work, I'm basically where I was basically representing the insurance companies, when somebody had a claim, someone had a case, and they were trying to get paid by the insurance companies. I was defending the insurance companies, I was the one litigating those cases, and try taking those depositions investigating, looking at the policy and trying to get that person paid, you know, competently, but as little as possible. And, you know, try to try to minimize the value of these cases, as much as I could. That was that was my job to represent the insurance companies. I didn't like that job very much. How long did you do that? So claims adjuster and insurance defense together was about four and a half years between the two of those, okay. I didn't stay doing that a long time, because I didn't really enjoy doing that. I didn't like sort of fighting people that were injured. I'd rather represent the people that were injured. And so I switched over after that, and started doing plaintiffs work, where I'm representing injured people and trying to help them recover against the insurance company, the very people that I worked for the very policies that I was interpreting now, I'm going against those people. And it helps because I know the game plan. I know what they're trying to do what they're trying to accomplish. So

I had a similar experience in I worked for a in law school I worked for it was the kind of job everybody wanted, right. I mean, it was like, everybody wanted he was in litigation. We just background. We went to a school that was very litigation focused like that was that you know, some schools I'm sure it's like, you know, who your who your parents are, or who you're, you know, your pedigree or what ours was, like, very litigation focus. If you could try cases and you had trial skills, then you were cool. That was the thing, you know, and so the litigation focus was was heavy, and that's probably why you went there. It's probably why I went there as well. But, but the school that we went to was very litigation focused. And in fact, some of the best trial lawyers in North Carolina came right out of that trial advocacy program. You know, I mean, some phenomenal Criminal Trial Lawyers, you know, medical malpractice lawyers and defense lawyers, just phenomenal people, many of whom were in you and I were in school at the same time, 100 years ago, or whatever it was. But yeah, so So, so I had a very similar experience, I worked for insurance, defense firm that everybody probably would have wanted to work for. And I did it for a short period of time. And I was like, I hate this, this is not me, I can't do this, you know, because there's just a lack of compassion, and the lack of those guys are still my friends to this day. So it's not I'm not really trying to condemn them. It's just, there are people who are naturally on one side or the other. And I think you and I are naturally on the side of injured people, as opposed to the corporations or whatever. You know, when

I think about our exceptional case team and our litigation team, if I'm correct. Every one of those lawyers at one point or another, did some insurance, defense work?

I think that's where you learn those fundamental skills. Right? Right.

And you understand how insurance companies work, what they're trying to do, how they try to minimize cases, what the policies mean, and say,

where they're coming from what their next move is, it's almost like if you're, you know, if you're a coach in football, and you and you have been a defensive coordinator, and now you're moving over to be an offensive coordinator, that being a defensive coordinator first, probably gives you an advantage into knowing how defenses are set up and operate and personnel and, and all that kind of structure and all that cyber warfare.

Yeah. And it's almost like you move from one team to another, and now you're playing your old team. Right, and, you know, all their plays. Yeah, that

makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. So, so other than, what are the qualifications past that? Well,

I've been doing plaintiffs work for represent injured people for 24 years now, something like that. So, you know, in that time, I've, I've, you know, handled all kinds of cases, most of the lawyers in our firm are very experienced, they've been doing it for a long, long time. They have tried cases, they've taken cases in front of judges and juries multiple times. They've battled every insurance company they know most of the adjusters by name, most of the defense lawyers by name, and they know us. And so that experience over all that time gives us a real advantage over somebody that sort of thinks they can handle a personal injury case or catastrophic case, but they've never done it before.

So is it fair to say like, so most people, I think, if if somebody was, you know, fender bender on Main Street in North Carolina, and they were hitting the back, and a lot of lawyers probably could get help them with that claim. Is that, is that fair? Probably good. Yeah, they're gonna get their medical records, they're gonna get their medical bills, they're gonna put together some kind of package. You know, I don't know, if they're gonna know how to about liens. And, and what what they should be looking for, in terms of a case, I don't know if they're gonna be respected by the insurance company enough to be able to get full value. Because they've, if they know that they're not capable of trying that case, I don't see why they'd ever pay for that. That's a factor, but they could get it resolved, maybe not for full value, but they could get it resolved. How important is experience reputation qualifications in a catastrophic

situation. And it's, it's critical, you know, the, so when I worked for the insurance companies, I knew which lawyers would and would not file a lawsuit. There were some lawyers that they were always going to settle the case, and I knew they were going to sell it and they weren't going to file a lawsuit. So I didn't offer them as much money. Because I wouldn't worry about filing a lawsuit. There are other lawyers that would file a lawsuit, but they would never take it to a jury and actually try the case to conclusion, they would just file a lawsuit and huff and puff, and maybe take some depositions and different things, but not actually take the case through to an actual jury trial. So it's sort of like somebody's pulling a gun on you, but there's no bullets. You know, it first you might be a little worried, but then you're like, once you realize just no bullets, there's no threat there. And so you're not going to give them they're not going to get the maximum value, and they're not going to know the procedures to do in a catastrophic case, which is very different than a regular case. So

so I can understand that. In fact, I remember thinking at some point, so in my career, you know, because when I got out of school, I started starting to practice right and just just meeting And, you know, my mom would come down and help help us in different stuff sometimes. But it was just me and, and so we would. But I was also had this chip on my shoulder because of that, right? I was always thinking, you know, these guys don't respect me. But I knew, I knew that I wanted to try cases. And I saw I tried cases early and often in my, in my career. And so that led me to a position where almost all of my cases were trials, right, like, in other words, I wouldn't get very many cases, usually, because I didn't have a marketing system or program or content. And so what would happen is I would get a case, and I would tell, tell it, send it to the insurance company, I'd be like, this case is worth, you know, a bunch of money. And they'd be like, No, it's not, you haven't proved anything to us. And I'd be like, alright, well, I'll show you and then off, we go. To start down the litigation process, you know, and so, it at that point, I was, I noticed that there were, there were a couple of different kinds of lawyers who were lawyers that were never going to try a case and nobody, and they never pretended, like they were going to try a case gonna settle every case. And there's other lawyers who were like, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna come in loaded for bear, right? And then they still wouldn't ever try case. And then there were other lawyers who were like, We're trying this case, unless you convince us not to. Right. And that's always the kind of lawyer that I want it to be is, like, we're going to try this case. And we're going to get what the full value of this case in front of the jury, unless you give us the money that we were gonna get otherwise and save us the trouble. And so I think that mentality is, is important. And, and so in terms of how important is it that a firm has been there before? Right? In other words, how important is that if you're, if you're looking for a multimillion dollar recovery? Well, let's talk about multimillion dollar recoveries for a minute, when I hear that not here, this firm got this much money or that much money, and it's like a multi million dollar thing. You know, is that relevant to the analysis? Or is it not? Is that firm just bragging? And just telling everybody how much, you know, you know, what, why is that relevant?

Well, I mean, you want somebody that's done it before somebody that's accomplished those things before, right? You know, if it's like, in a, in a basketball tournament, you know, in the NBA, a team that's been to the finals before, and maybe lost, knows how to get back to the finals, and then why they lost and they won't make that mistake again. Now they do it right. And then they can do it. Right. Again, they can do it right. Again, because they've been there, they've done that they've, they've experienced those things. And, you know, the hope is, you know, we talked about lawyers litigate, don't litigate, the hope is that, you know, if you litigate enough cases, and you show them, you're willing to do that, and you can come out with successful, you know, verdicts like that, then they won't want to try the case against you. And they'll want to give you full value in settlement. So that you don't have to file a lawsuit, or you don't have to take it all the way to a jury trial. Because they know that you're serious, and you know what you're doing. So that actually, sometimes can can help clients stay out of lawsuits and litigation, because you've already got that pedigree, you've already got that experience, and the insurance companies know that.

So I liken it to this, I remember when my kids were growing up, and I, I had, you know, take self defense classes, martial arts, and that kind of stuff, not forever, but enough to where I felt like, you know, you know, and so the reason that, that I wanted them to learn how to fight was that so they would never have to fight. Right? So that so that the bully, when the bully is going to walk into the lunch room, he sees my guys, and he goes, alright, I'm going to the next table, you know, because this is not somebody I want to, you know, try to get in this situation with. And that's, I think it's the same thing here exactly. If we can demonstrate to them, and we have a history and a reputation of being able to do these things, you know, then then, let me ask you this. It's because it's more than that, in my opinion, there's part of it is the willingness to go to trial and the ability to go to trial. And those are skills that you develop over a very long period of time. Those are not skills that you can read about in a book, those are skills that have to be, you know, you have to learn them in school, you have to develop them, in smaller cases, bigger cases, bigger cases, bigger cases. And then it is no easy business asking a jury for whole a whole lot of money under an anyway and especially in you know, conservative counties in North Carolina. It is no easy business. In addition to that willingness and that commitment, you know, there are other things, and we'll talk about some of those more, but building a case building the case is different now for us than it might have been 20 years ago, right? Like I mean, the steps that we go through to build a case now are so much more involved and so much more intricate and so much more strategic and calculated than they ever were, you know, before how I don't, I just don't can't imagine how anybody that didn't like, for example, if it's a real estate lawyer who's helping your case, or a guy who does different things, or even when a guy who has a big law firm that does, you know, just hundreds of car wreck cases, I just don't see how they could do the things that needed to be done, and see how they're structured in a way that can do the things that they need to be done to build these kinds of cases, quickly, without going to too much detail, what are some of those things that have to be done, in order to build a million multimillion dollar case? Well,

you've got to have the right medical management, make sure people are getting, you know, the treatment that they need, that their doctors recommend, and then you've got, you've got to use certain experts to build value to, to and it's not making things up, it's documenting things that are there that are difficult to document, what are the actual economic losses of somebody, it's not just their paycheck, you know, it's it's the fact that they can't do the things around their house anymore, and they have to hire somebody, and they're, you know, different. We talked about x Reconstructionist. There's all kinds of experts. You know, if you haven't done catastrophic cases, for and regularly, you will not know the procedure to maximize and build those cases properly. And you won't have been through it to learn where the mistakes are, and to fix them and not do them again. All of that is critical. And you know, one of the piece we didn't talk about is if you got, you know, a catastrophic case, you're gonna get a different lawyer on the other side, you're not gonna get the younger defense associate, you're gonna get the top of the firm litigator, who is fantastic lawyer. And if you don't have a fantastic lawyer on your side, you're going to be in trouble.

So that's a great point. Let's come back to that. And when we let's take a break, and we'll come back to that in just a few minutes. All right. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury.

Welcome back to catastrophic comeback. Jeff, I'd like to talk to you now a little bit about okay, a person has made a decision, they've suffered a catastrophic accident, they think there may be some type of recovery available to them through worker's comp or through liability. And they're trying to net they understand from the last segment that they need to call somebody. The next question is, who do they call, right? And we're not saying to call us necessarily, we're just saying, generally, what are the types of things that they need to consider? Like, I'm thinking about it, if I'm a person in that situation, and I'm trying to decide, I'm like, What do I do what I make up make a decision based on billboards, I'm gonna, like this thing, I'm gonna make a decision based on, you know, TV commercials radio, like how much was to decide who's good and who's not, who knows what they're doing? Who can help me? So let's talk about for a few minutes about qualifications. Can you tell me about, you know, you do these kinds of cases, you know, you do these kinds of cases, you're committed to helping people who are who have been through these situations. And just, in our firm, for example, we have a specific division of our firm that is devoted to nothing but exceptional cases of catastrophic cases, and you lead that division. And so can you talk to me about your qualifications? I mean, I know you as a modest person, I don't and I'm not looking, I just want to just like for you to tell, like what in your background, what in your history has led you to a place where you feel like you can help people that are in these types of situations.

So I, you know, when I got into college, I worked as a senior claims adjuster for an insurance company, a major insurance company, for several years, handle claims, adjusted claims, property damage, injury, catastrophic injuries. So I dealt with it from the insurance side of negotiating the claims, and investigating. That also gave me an understanding of of insurance policies and what these policies will and won't cover and what the exceptions are, and how to, you know, how to read them and know, you know, that this coverage would apply when someone else would know that coverage would apply. You know, after that, going to different schooling that I went to law school, I came out of there and did insurance defense work, which was natural for me, because I'd been a claims adjuster. Well, you mean insurance defense where so insurance defense work, I'm basically where I was basically representing the insurance companies, when somebody had a claim, someone had a case, and they were trying to get paid by the insurance companies. I was defending the insurance companies, I was the one litigating those cases, and try taking those depositions investigating, looking at the policy and trying to get that person paid, you know, competently, but as little as possible. And, you know, try to try to minimize the value of these cases, as much as I could. That was that was my job to represent the insurance companies. I didn't like that job very much. How long did you do that? So claims adjuster and insurance defense together was about four and a half years between the two of those, okay. I didn't stay doing that a long time, because I didn't really enjoy doing that. I didn't like sort of fighting people that were injured. I'd rather represent the people that were injured. And so I switched over after that, and started doing plaintiffs work, where I'm representing injured people and trying to help them recover against the insurance company, the very people that I worked for the very policies that I was interpreting now, I'm going against those people. And it helps because I know the game plan. I know what they're trying to do what they're trying to accomplish. So

I had a similar experience in I worked for a in law school I worked for it was the kind of job everybody wanted, right. I mean, it was like, everybody wanted he was in litigation. We just background. We went to a school that was very litigation focused like that was that you know, some schools I'm sure it's like, you know, who your who your parents are, or who you're, you know, your pedigree or what ours was, like, very litigation focus. If you could try cases and you had trial skills, then you were cool. That was the thing, you know, and so the litigation focus was was heavy, and that's probably why you went there. It's probably why I went there as well. But, but the school that we went to was very litigation focused. And in fact, some of the best trial lawyers in North Carolina came right out of that trial advocacy program. You know, I mean, some phenomenal Criminal Trial Lawyers, you know, medical malpractice lawyers and defense lawyers, just phenomenal people, many of whom were in you and I were in school at the same time, 100 years ago, or whatever it was. But yeah, so So, so I had a very similar experience, I worked for insurance, defense firm that everybody probably would have wanted to work for. And I did it for a short period of time. And I was like, I hate this, this is not me, I can't do this, you know, because there's just a lack of compassion, and the lack of those guys are still my friends to this day. So it's not I'm not really trying to condemn them. It's just, there are people who are naturally on one side or the other. And I think you and I are naturally on the side of injured people, as opposed to the corporations or whatever. You know, when

I think about our exceptional case team and our litigation team, if I'm correct. Every one of those lawyers at one point or another, did some insurance, defense work?

I think that's where you learn those fundamental skills. Right? Right.

And you understand how insurance companies work, what they're trying to do, how they try to minimize cases, what the policies mean, and say,

where they're coming from what their next move is, it's almost like if you're, you know, if you're a coach in football, and you and you have been a defensive coordinator, and now you're moving over to be an offensive coordinator, that being a defensive coordinator first, probably gives you an advantage into knowing how defenses are set up and operate and personnel and, and all that kind of structure and all that cyber warfare.

Yeah. And it's almost like you move from one team to another, and now you're playing your old team. Right, and, you know, all their plays. Yeah, that

makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. So, so other than, what are the qualifications past that? Well,

I've been doing plaintiffs work for represent injured people for 24 years now, something like that. So, you know, in that time, I've, I've, you know, handled all kinds of cases, most of the lawyers in our firm are very experienced, they've been doing it for a long, long time. They have tried cases, they've taken cases in front of judges and juries multiple times. They've battled every insurance company they know most of the adjusters by name, most of the defense lawyers by name, and they know us. And so that experience over all that time gives us a real advantage over somebody that sort of thinks they can handle a personal injury case or catastrophic case, but they've never done it before.

So is it fair to say like, so most people, I think, if if somebody was, you know, fender bender on Main Street in North Carolina, and they were hitting the back, and a lot of lawyers probably could get help them with that claim. Is that, is that fair? Probably good. Yeah, they're gonna get their medical records, they're gonna get their medical bills, they're gonna put together some kind of package. You know, I don't know, if they're gonna know how to about liens. And, and what what they should be looking for, in terms of a case, I don't know if they're gonna be respected by the insurance company enough to be able to get full value. Because they've, if they know that they're not capable of trying that case, I don't see why they'd ever pay for that. That's a factor, but they could get it resolved, maybe not for full value, but they could get it resolved. How important is experience reputation qualifications in a catastrophic

situation. And it's, it's critical, you know, the, so when I worked for the insurance companies, I knew which lawyers would and would not file a lawsuit. There were some lawyers that they were always going to settle the case, and I knew they were going to sell it and they weren't going to file a lawsuit. So I didn't offer them as much money. Because I wouldn't worry about filing a lawsuit. There are other lawyers that would file a lawsuit, but they would never take it to a jury and actually try the case to conclusion, they would just file a lawsuit and huff and puff, and maybe take some depositions and different things, but not actually take the case through to an actual jury trial. So it's sort of like somebody's pulling a gun on you, but there's no bullets. You know, it first you might be a little worried, but then you're like, once you realize just no bullets, there's no threat there. And so you're not going to give them they're not going to get the maximum value, and they're not going to know the procedures to do in a catastrophic case, which is very different than a regular case. So

so I can understand that. In fact, I remember thinking at some point, so in my career, you know, because when I got out of school, I started starting to practice right and just just meeting And, you know, my mom would come down and help help us in different stuff sometimes. But it was just me and, and so we would. But I was also had this chip on my shoulder because of that, right? I was always thinking, you know, these guys don't respect me. But I knew, I knew that I wanted to try cases. And I saw I tried cases early and often in my, in my career. And so that led me to a position where almost all of my cases were trials, right, like, in other words, I wouldn't get very many cases, usually, because I didn't have a marketing system or program or content. And so what would happen is I would get a case, and I would tell, tell it, send it to the insurance company, I'd be like, this case is worth, you know, a bunch of money. And they'd be like, No, it's not, you haven't proved anything to us. And I'd be like, alright, well, I'll show you and then off, we go. To start down the litigation process, you know, and so, it at that point, I was, I noticed that there were, there were a couple of different kinds of lawyers who were lawyers that were never going to try a case and nobody, and they never pretended, like they were going to try a case gonna settle every case. And there's other lawyers who were like, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna come in loaded for bear, right? And then they still wouldn't ever try case. And then there were other lawyers who were like, We're trying this case, unless you convince us not to. Right. And that's always the kind of lawyer that I want it to be is, like, we're going to try this case. And we're going to get what the full value of this case in front of the jury, unless you give us the money that we were gonna get otherwise and save us the trouble. And so I think that mentality is, is important. And, and so in terms of how important is it that a firm has been there before? Right? In other words, how important is that if you're, if you're looking for a multimillion dollar recovery? Well, let's talk about multimillion dollar recoveries for a minute, when I hear that not here, this firm got this much money or that much money, and it's like a multi million dollar thing. You know, is that relevant to the analysis? Or is it not? Is that firm just bragging? And just telling everybody how much, you know, you know, what, why is that relevant?

Well, I mean, you want somebody that's done it before somebody that's accomplished those things before, right? You know, if it's like, in a, in a basketball tournament, you know, in the NBA, a team that's been to the finals before, and maybe lost, knows how to get back to the finals, and then why they lost and they won't make that mistake again. Now they do it right. And then they can do it. Right. Again, they can do it right. Again, because they've been there, they've done that they've, they've experienced those things. And, you know, the hope is, you know, we talked about lawyers litigate, don't litigate, the hope is that, you know, if you litigate enough cases, and you show them, you're willing to do that, and you can come out with successful, you know, verdicts like that, then they won't want to try the case against you. And they'll want to give you full value in settlement. So that you don't have to file a lawsuit, or you don't have to take it all the way to a jury trial. Because they know that you're serious, and you know what you're doing. So that actually, sometimes can can help clients stay out of lawsuits and litigation, because you've already got that pedigree, you've already got that experience, and the insurance companies know that.

So I liken it to this, I remember when my kids were growing up, and I, I had, you know, take self defense classes, martial arts, and that kind of stuff, not forever, but enough to where I felt like, you know, you know, and so the reason that, that I wanted them to learn how to fight was that so they would never have to fight. Right? So that so that the bully, when the bully is going to walk into the lunch room, he sees my guys, and he goes, alright, I'm going to the next table, you know, because this is not somebody I want to, you know, try to get in this situation with. And that's, I think it's the same thing here exactly. If we can demonstrate to them, and we have a history and a reputation of being able to do these things, you know, then then, let me ask you this. It's because it's more than that, in my opinion, there's part of it is the willingness to go to trial and the ability to go to trial. And those are skills that you develop over a very long period of time. Those are not skills that you can read about in a book, those are skills that have to be, you know, you have to learn them in school, you have to develop them, in smaller cases, bigger cases, bigger cases, bigger cases. And then it is no easy business asking a jury for whole a whole lot of money under an anyway and especially in you know, conservative counties in North Carolina. It is no easy business. In addition to that willingness and that commitment, you know, there are other things, and we'll talk about some of those more, but building a case building the case is different now for us than it might have been 20 years ago, right? Like I mean, the steps that we go through to build a case now are so much more involved and so much more intricate and so much more strategic and calculated than they ever were, you know, before how I don't, I just don't can't imagine how anybody that didn't like, for example, if it's a real estate lawyer who's helping your case, or a guy who does different things, or even when a guy who has a big law firm that does, you know, just hundreds of car wreck cases, I just don't see how they could do the things that needed to be done, and see how they're structured in a way that can do the things that they need to be done to build these kinds of cases, quickly, without going to too much detail, what are some of those things that have to be done, in order to build a million multimillion dollar case? Well,

you've got to have the right medical management, make sure people are getting, you know, the treatment that they need, that their doctors recommend, and then you've got, you've got to use certain experts to build value to, to and it's not making things up, it's documenting things that are there that are difficult to document, what are the actual economic losses of somebody, it's not just their paycheck, you know, it's it's the fact that they can't do the things around their house anymore, and they have to hire somebody, and they're, you know, different. We talked about x Reconstructionist. There's all kinds of experts. You know, if you haven't done catastrophic cases, for and regularly, you will not know the procedure to maximize and build those cases properly. And you won't have been through it to learn where the mistakes are, and to fix them and not do them again. All of that is critical. And you know, one of the piece we didn't talk about is if you got, you know, a catastrophic case, you're gonna get a different lawyer on the other side, you're not gonna get the younger defense associate, you're gonna get the top of the firm litigator, who is fantastic lawyer. And if you don't have a fantastic lawyer on your side, you're going to be in trouble.

So that's a great point. Let's come back to that. And when we let's take a break, and we'll come back to that in just a few minutes. All right. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time.