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EP 16: How Art Therapy Can Aid Recovery After Catastrophic Injuries (Part 1)

Most people recovering from a catastrophic injury or trauma will turn to therapy to help them through that process, but there’s one specific form of therapy that you might not know about it: art therapy.

Art therapy is a different modality of expression that provides an alternative to the traditional form of therapy that relies on verbal expression. Instead, it utilizes psychological principles along with art materials, processes, and activities to help people with their challenges. This isn’t necessarily used in place of the traditional cognitive behavior therapy, but it pro-vides another avenue for expression, and you don’t have to have any artistic ability to benefit from this.

Today we’re talking with C.J. Peed of Heart Therapy Solutions about this form of therapy. We’ll learn more about how it works, who can utilize it, and how it can benefit you in recovery.

Here’s some of what we discuss in this episode:
0:00 – Intro
0:36 – What is art therapy
1:46 – How she got into it
5:15 – Processing trauma
9:04 – Expressive therapies continuum
10:15 – People with physical limitations
12:40 – Interpreting the art
15:13 – The benefits

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Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury.

Hi, welcome to catastrophic comeback. I'm very happy today to have my guest CJP Art Therapist, to talk about art therapy and how it might apply in a catastrophic after a catastrophic injury. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

First, can you tell me a little about your background? Well, let's do this. Let me tell me art therapy, what is that? How does it work? And how might it be applicable to someone who sustained a catastrophic injury

or therapy is a technique or a way of expression that utilizes kind of psychological principles, along with art materials, art processes, and art activities, to help people with a variety of issues or challenges that they may have? So it's a different modality of expression, instead of traditional talk, cognitive behavior therapy only.

So So for example, if something if somebody processes information or communicates information, generally they would talk about it, right? They might write about it, they might talk about it, is that what you mean by traditional modalities?

And it doesn't have to be just verbal expression, it gives another opportunity for people to figure out what they're feeling what their thoughts are, and how to find coping mechanisms through the modality of art, basically.

Okay, so let me ask you this, in terms of your background, is do other people do this? Art Therapy? Is this something that you developed? Can you tell me about a little bit

I did not develop, it has been around since the 1940s, there was a guy and a British guy that coined it, there's a mother of, I guess, called the mother of art therapy, named Burgas, her last name in the 1940s, which kind of defined art therapy for what it is today. And I went to school to get my master's degree in art therapy and counseling. So that's kind of my background with the art therapy part before that I had a master's degree in art, from Chapel Hill, with a almost minor in psychology. And you had to have both of those components to get into the program and becoming an art therapist, you get your master's degree. And it's like any other mental health professional, where you undergo the same principles of psychotherapy, and can diagnose clients. And it's just you have that art component as another resource as well. So it's

so it sounds like what you're saying is, it's like most therapies, it but instead of a person either talking to you, and I'm just trying to get my head around it to talking to you about their challenges, or their problems or what they're feeling, or maybe they would talk to you. And, you know, just combine

and like, for me personally, I kind of do cognitive behavior therapy, which is, you know, redefining what you're thinking about something and helping people get to a place where they can heal, or move forward. And use art as a way to help them without them having to do verbal expression. And it can, when you use art, it can be any kind of material. It can be the process of art that helps give me the final product that helps. Sometimes it's just a technique that has nothing to do with any sort of like finished product, it can be different for whoever. I think one thing to bring up, that's really important. One of the most asked questions that I get from it, about it rather is do you have to be creative? Do you have to have any artistic ability? Absolutely not. You can have never drawn or use any art materials in your entire life, and it could still be beneficial for you.

Well, so I remember. I had a I remember Mike Ashcraft at Port City Community Church, he remember he talked about this one time, he says, he says if you walk into a room of five year olds, and you say Who here is an artist, every single kid raises their hand. Sure. But if you walk into a room full of 16 year olds, and you say Who here's an artist, two people raise their hand. And so and so. So what you're seem to be saying is that your talent or your aptitude really has no impact on whether this will be beneficial or not. Absolutely and,

and that's it's a modality to we forget as we get older, because when you are a child and you're that's the first thing you do is arc before you can even write your drawing, you know, and it's

really just a way of expressing yourself. Absolutely, absolutely. So this is a way of expressing yourself to a therapist who then might be able to help you process whatever it is you're going through, for sure. Well, so when we've talked to we've had other guests on, we've had people who have sustained catastrophic injuries, and we've had people who help, you know, some, some spiritual people who've helped process these kinds of situations. And there seems to be this sort of process that people go through after a after an injury or something, or they've lost someone or something along those lines. And the some of the, we've kind of put it all together and synthesized it. And if you take what a lot of these guys have said, and you put it all together, it seems to be like, well, first of all, you need to try to be grateful for whatever you, whatever you do have, you know, so if you, if you have lost the ability to do X, and do you still have the ability to do Y, or if you've lost a person, then you still have your life, and maybe you still have other people who you care about. So those might be at least things to be grateful for. And then then the next thing is, you've got to give yourself time and space, to to be sad, to be frustrated, to be angry to be. And then at some point, the suggestion is, okay, now we find peace, and then purpose, and then joy. And then there's another part of it, which is the sort of the, hopefully the complete picture where that you try to share your healing and your progress with someone else. And that's what that seems to be what what people were saying has been helpful to them. With the somebody else added this piece of it, which I thought was interesting is, you can actually go think you're here and then go back and back and back and forth in this process.

It's not a linear process. How

does this fit into your does this framework make sense to you that I've described? Is it right? Is it wrong in your experience? And how does it fit into your process, it

makes sense to me, um, I think something I would add about it, I definitely agree with the part where you need that space to kind of accept and process art therapy can help with the processing part too. Because sometimes you have to kind of reinvent the narrative of what happened. And it's your perceptions, right. And sometimes you have to go through, you know, what you're feeling in your body, what your emotions are, you might be, you know, dysregulated, you might, you know, have anxiety, you may or might not feel safe, and they're gonna begin is a place where you can kind of work through some of those things as well, even before you get to the part where you're ready to heal, you know, and in even going through the process to have a space to do those things. Is part of your healing, process reengineering,

make sense, you know, yeah, but what do you mean reinvent the narrative?

Well, when we go through as humans, right, we go through something that's traumatic, we have a narrative of what happened. And it's our perception, right? There can be two people going through the same exact thing, and have different perceptions and outcomes and how it affected them. And not just

the basic facts, like in other words, there was a thing I fell, and there had this injury and this treatment, but what you're talking about is something different from that what like, why is that what it is why this happened to

me why this happened to me, it could be I'm now scared to go out of my house, it could, it could be 1000, you know, numerous things, I can't even possibly think about all of them. But it, it helps reframe it to going back to what you said to being grateful into a positive and mindful space, to where you can kind of process and handle it, and hopefully move on and be your best self. So

let me ask you, so what when it comes to art therapy, when you say when I when I think of art therapy, I'm thinking about okay, well, we're gonna meet, we're gonna, I'm gonna have a table, I'm gonna have some colored pens or some paints or whatever, or maybe an easel and then I'm gonna paint but but is there there's is there more to it than that? Or is that how it works? Yeah,

there's definitely more to it. There's a whole framework called the e. T C, expressive therapies continuum. That kind of helps our therapists decide on what kind of project or we call it, our intervention. It's basically our activity, what materials to use, even like the size and type of paper, every single thing is a choice by the art therapist because there's certain art materials that could that are containing and helpful if someone's really emotional. There's also art materials that say someone's having a difficult time expressing themselves and their Keeping any emotions, they might need to release that that would help with that. And an art therapist just takes that person and also maybe into account something that they're comfortable with some art materials are comfortable with, and then come up with something that would be helpful for them.

So a lot of times we're dealing with and working with and talking to people who have, as a result of one of these catastrophic accidents or injuries may have permanent physical limitations. They can't do some of the things that they used to do mobility or whatever, is there space for them in this in this process? Because

that's a huge loss. And you have to process that loss and figure out how is my new normal going to be? What's it going to look like? How can I be in this space, and there needs to be a mourning process with that, too, as well as, like you said, focusing on what you do have, and again, art therapy can help with those coping mechanisms to sometimes the art processing is a coping mechanism. Sometimes you realize, as you've done an art activity, that you have insight within yourself. And that's kind of the hope, as a therapist, you know, when working with a client that they get something out of it. I mean, there's therapeutic goals that you establish, as well. But, or

is it fair to, like, as I can imagine, like, I remember growing up, and I remember as a kid being like, art was like, my favorite subject in school. Right, you know, and so, which I think is interesting, because I think a lot of people would be surprised by that, and maybe even looked down on that. But I think that's a mistake. Because I think that it's the creative expression is, it can manifest itself in 1000 different ways. As you get older and

right, and it comes natural. Again, it's like one of the first things we do in an educational setting, we do art, and a lot of people do have fond memories of of creating art in elementary school, preschool, sometimes it's the first thing they remember about school. Well, I

remember doing that kind of stuff with like, my, my mom was a kid, even before I got to school, and being like, Oh, this is fun. And this is, you know, and it's your first chance, I remember this, there's a song that says, ever since I can talk, I was ordered to listen, you know, that Cat Stevens song? And so, and so, it seems like art is not that way, right? It's yeah, it's just everybody gets out the way and lets you gives you the space to, to put your thoughts and your feelings and your energy in a direction.

And it's, there's not a right or wrong way to do it. So

So if if that happens, and somebody does create something, what's the process and you look at it, and you say, hey, this means such and so you're interpreted and or you're,

I mean, yeah, I can, I can interpret it. But it's more about having the person interpret it and what they feel what it was for them. And not just the end result, but also the process. Sometimes it's the process. Sometimes when I've worked with people with anxiety, it may be a simple eight and a half by 11, you know, piece of paper, where they're using, like a watercolor, Crayola something really simple, and picking their favorite color or come calming color for that moment, and just moving the paintbrush from left to right, and moving it left to right. So even if somebody has access that has, I mean, they may end up liking the product, and then that might turn into something else. But the process could be enough sometimes.

So even if somebody has physical limitations in terms of their ability to move or control their hands as well as they used to, or whatever, then there there are things they can do in this or therapy world that might be beneficial to them. Is that right? It's

absolutely you don't even have to have the use of your hands on art therapists, you could tell the art therapist what to do. Or the art therapist could talk about colors or visualization. And somehow bring in different types of art materials and maybe bring in something that has to do with this other senses like your smell, and sight and hearing too. You can kind of incorporate those other parts of the art world as well.

So if we're, so if we're, let's say if we have because I was thinking okay, if we have paraplegic, someone who's paralyzed from the waist down, this might make sense, but I was struggling to see if quadriplegia if a person who's paralyzed from the neck down might be able to participate and and what that might look like but you're telling me that's that's a possibility under the circumstances it can

be there are their business needs to be able to, again, they're probably have to be a little bit more verbal on the intake, you know, of like, okay, what kind of materials would you like to look at? What are your columns or

what kind of what material materials, you

know, like, because sometimes just looking at art can be helpful to, you know, sure, and having that person maybe dictate something that they want to see. And you help facilitate that too, because I mean, we have it the art route. round as well, if we need to use it.

And so then, you know, I guess through that process of thinking about those things, talking about those things describing those things. What was the what is the benefit? Is it? Is it okay, let's, let's get our minds off of all this stuff. And let's think about something more creative. Is it time diagnosis? Is it? Is it all the above? Would it be

all the above, you know, it really just is individualized to the person. And also, I just thought of another idea to you that you can use with a paraplegic would be like to help them create a collage, you know, and looking through magazines and other materials to create something that way too.

Okay. Tell me more about what you What's your thinking as far as that goes like a collage? Yeah,

well, you can look through things and pick out things that are meaningful to you. It could be something that's inspirational, it could be colors, it could be shapes, it could be favorite animals, it could be, you know, some kind of symbol that, you know, speaks to your spirituality, your family, it could be anything, really,

could it be something negative, and, you know, sometimes you hear about people taking something negative, and they'll they'll have some kind of set, you know, I keep coming back to sports analogies. But but but I remember, was it the it was the 97 bulls, this wasn't a negative thing. But after the after, or maybe the 98 bulls after they finished with their championship, their second championship run, I think everybody brought something in, that was related to that season. And maybe they talked about it, and then they burned it, the idea being not necessarily that it wasn't, that wasn't a negative thing, but it was like to, to, to celebrate it and move on. But the whole point of it was it was a way for them to process something and move on to a different phase of life

cathartic kind of moment. Yeah. And that can happen to it can be something that's harder, harder emotions kind of negative that you might think, or the person might think that would be negative into the relationship or you just process and work through that too. And sometimes the artwork can be a release of that to where you can. Okay, this is a collage about this terrible thing that happened to me, these are the feelings I have, this is what I associate with it. Now I've made it now it's done and off I go move on. Sometimes that can happen and I guess now

you can kind of have the best of both worlds because you could actually, you know, take a photograph of with a phone and then have it for future reference, but still have the have whatever you get from you know, saying goodbye to whatever those feelings or those thoughts or whatever. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

Transcript

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury.

Hi, welcome to catastrophic comeback. I'm very happy today to have my guest CJP Art Therapist, to talk about art therapy and how it might apply in a catastrophic after a catastrophic injury. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

First, can you tell me a little about your background? Well, let's do this. Let me tell me art therapy, what is that? How does it work? And how might it be applicable to someone who sustained a catastrophic injury

or therapy is a technique or a way of expression that utilizes kind of psychological principles, along with art materials, art processes, and art activities, to help people with a variety of issues or challenges that they may have? So it's a different modality of expression, instead of traditional talk, cognitive behavior therapy only.

So So for example, if something if somebody processes information or communicates information, generally they would talk about it, right? They might write about it, they might talk about it, is that what you mean by traditional modalities?

And it doesn't have to be just verbal expression, it gives another opportunity for people to figure out what they're feeling what their thoughts are, and how to find coping mechanisms through the modality of art, basically.

Okay, so let me ask you this, in terms of your background, is do other people do this? Art Therapy? Is this something that you developed? Can you tell me about a little bit

I did not develop, it has been around since the 1940s, there was a guy and a British guy that coined it, there's a mother of, I guess, called the mother of art therapy, named Burgas, her last name in the 1940s, which kind of defined art therapy for what it is today. And I went to school to get my master's degree in art therapy and counseling. So that's kind of my background with the art therapy part before that I had a master's degree in art, from Chapel Hill, with a almost minor in psychology. And you had to have both of those components to get into the program and becoming an art therapist, you get your master's degree. And it's like any other mental health professional, where you undergo the same principles of psychotherapy, and can diagnose clients. And it's just you have that art component as another resource as well. So it's

so it sounds like what you're saying is, it's like most therapies, it but instead of a person either talking to you, and I'm just trying to get my head around it to talking to you about their challenges, or their problems or what they're feeling, or maybe they would talk to you. And, you know, just combine

and like, for me personally, I kind of do cognitive behavior therapy, which is, you know, redefining what you're thinking about something and helping people get to a place where they can heal, or move forward. And use art as a way to help them without them having to do verbal expression. And it can, when you use art, it can be any kind of material. It can be the process of art that helps give me the final product that helps. Sometimes it's just a technique that has nothing to do with any sort of like finished product, it can be different for whoever. I think one thing to bring up, that's really important. One of the most asked questions that I get from it, about it rather is do you have to be creative? Do you have to have any artistic ability? Absolutely not. You can have never drawn or use any art materials in your entire life, and it could still be beneficial for you.

Well, so I remember. I had a I remember Mike Ashcraft at Port City Community Church, he remember he talked about this one time, he says, he says if you walk into a room of five year olds, and you say Who here is an artist, every single kid raises their hand. Sure. But if you walk into a room full of 16 year olds, and you say Who here's an artist, two people raise their hand. And so and so. So what you're seem to be saying is that your talent or your aptitude really has no impact on whether this will be beneficial or not. Absolutely and,

and that's it's a modality to we forget as we get older, because when you are a child and you're that's the first thing you do is arc before you can even write your drawing, you know, and it's

really just a way of expressing yourself. Absolutely, absolutely. So this is a way of expressing yourself to a therapist who then might be able to help you process whatever it is you're going through, for sure. Well, so when we've talked to we've had other guests on, we've had people who have sustained catastrophic injuries, and we've had people who help, you know, some, some spiritual people who've helped process these kinds of situations. And there seems to be this sort of process that people go through after a after an injury or something, or they've lost someone or something along those lines. And the some of the, we've kind of put it all together and synthesized it. And if you take what a lot of these guys have said, and you put it all together, it seems to be like, well, first of all, you need to try to be grateful for whatever you, whatever you do have, you know, so if you, if you have lost the ability to do X, and do you still have the ability to do Y, or if you've lost a person, then you still have your life, and maybe you still have other people who you care about. So those might be at least things to be grateful for. And then then the next thing is, you've got to give yourself time and space, to to be sad, to be frustrated, to be angry to be. And then at some point, the suggestion is, okay, now we find peace, and then purpose, and then joy. And then there's another part of it, which is the sort of the, hopefully the complete picture where that you try to share your healing and your progress with someone else. And that's what that seems to be what what people were saying has been helpful to them. With the somebody else added this piece of it, which I thought was interesting is, you can actually go think you're here and then go back and back and back and forth in this process.

It's not a linear process. How

does this fit into your does this framework make sense to you that I've described? Is it right? Is it wrong in your experience? And how does it fit into your process, it

makes sense to me, um, I think something I would add about it, I definitely agree with the part where you need that space to kind of accept and process art therapy can help with the processing part too. Because sometimes you have to kind of reinvent the narrative of what happened. And it's your perceptions, right. And sometimes you have to go through, you know, what you're feeling in your body, what your emotions are, you might be, you know, dysregulated, you might, you know, have anxiety, you may or might not feel safe, and they're gonna begin is a place where you can kind of work through some of those things as well, even before you get to the part where you're ready to heal, you know, and in even going through the process to have a space to do those things. Is part of your healing, process reengineering,

make sense, you know, yeah, but what do you mean reinvent the narrative?

Well, when we go through as humans, right, we go through something that's traumatic, we have a narrative of what happened. And it's our perception, right? There can be two people going through the same exact thing, and have different perceptions and outcomes and how it affected them. And not just

the basic facts, like in other words, there was a thing I fell, and there had this injury and this treatment, but what you're talking about is something different from that what like, why is that what it is why this happened to

me why this happened to me, it could be I'm now scared to go out of my house, it could, it could be 1000, you know, numerous things, I can't even possibly think about all of them. But it, it helps reframe it to going back to what you said to being grateful into a positive and mindful space, to where you can kind of process and handle it, and hopefully move on and be your best self. So

let me ask you, so what when it comes to art therapy, when you say when I when I think of art therapy, I'm thinking about okay, well, we're gonna meet, we're gonna, I'm gonna have a table, I'm gonna have some colored pens or some paints or whatever, or maybe an easel and then I'm gonna paint but but is there there's is there more to it than that? Or is that how it works? Yeah,

there's definitely more to it. There's a whole framework called the e. T C, expressive therapies continuum. That kind of helps our therapists decide on what kind of project or we call it, our intervention. It's basically our activity, what materials to use, even like the size and type of paper, every single thing is a choice by the art therapist because there's certain art materials that could that are containing and helpful if someone's really emotional. There's also art materials that say someone's having a difficult time expressing themselves and their Keeping any emotions, they might need to release that that would help with that. And an art therapist just takes that person and also maybe into account something that they're comfortable with some art materials are comfortable with, and then come up with something that would be helpful for them.

So a lot of times we're dealing with and working with and talking to people who have, as a result of one of these catastrophic accidents or injuries may have permanent physical limitations. They can't do some of the things that they used to do mobility or whatever, is there space for them in this in this process? Because

that's a huge loss. And you have to process that loss and figure out how is my new normal going to be? What's it going to look like? How can I be in this space, and there needs to be a mourning process with that, too, as well as, like you said, focusing on what you do have, and again, art therapy can help with those coping mechanisms to sometimes the art processing is a coping mechanism. Sometimes you realize, as you've done an art activity, that you have insight within yourself. And that's kind of the hope, as a therapist, you know, when working with a client that they get something out of it. I mean, there's therapeutic goals that you establish, as well. But, or

is it fair to, like, as I can imagine, like, I remember growing up, and I remember as a kid being like, art was like, my favorite subject in school. Right, you know, and so, which I think is interesting, because I think a lot of people would be surprised by that, and maybe even looked down on that. But I think that's a mistake. Because I think that it's the creative expression is, it can manifest itself in 1000 different ways. As you get older and

right, and it comes natural. Again, it's like one of the first things we do in an educational setting, we do art, and a lot of people do have fond memories of of creating art in elementary school, preschool, sometimes it's the first thing they remember about school. Well, I

remember doing that kind of stuff with like, my, my mom was a kid, even before I got to school, and being like, Oh, this is fun. And this is, you know, and it's your first chance, I remember this, there's a song that says, ever since I can talk, I was ordered to listen, you know, that Cat Stevens song? And so, and so, it seems like art is not that way, right? It's yeah, it's just everybody gets out the way and lets you gives you the space to, to put your thoughts and your feelings and your energy in a direction.

And it's, there's not a right or wrong way to do it. So

So if if that happens, and somebody does create something, what's the process and you look at it, and you say, hey, this means such and so you're interpreted and or you're,

I mean, yeah, I can, I can interpret it. But it's more about having the person interpret it and what they feel what it was for them. And not just the end result, but also the process. Sometimes it's the process. Sometimes when I've worked with people with anxiety, it may be a simple eight and a half by 11, you know, piece of paper, where they're using, like a watercolor, Crayola something really simple, and picking their favorite color or come calming color for that moment, and just moving the paintbrush from left to right, and moving it left to right. So even if somebody has access that has, I mean, they may end up liking the product, and then that might turn into something else. But the process could be enough sometimes.

So even if somebody has physical limitations in terms of their ability to move or control their hands as well as they used to, or whatever, then there there are things they can do in this or therapy world that might be beneficial to them. Is that right? It's

absolutely you don't even have to have the use of your hands on art therapists, you could tell the art therapist what to do. Or the art therapist could talk about colors or visualization. And somehow bring in different types of art materials and maybe bring in something that has to do with this other senses like your smell, and sight and hearing too. You can kind of incorporate those other parts of the art world as well.

So if we're, so if we're, let's say if we have because I was thinking okay, if we have paraplegic, someone who's paralyzed from the waist down, this might make sense, but I was struggling to see if quadriplegia if a person who's paralyzed from the neck down might be able to participate and and what that might look like but you're telling me that's that's a possibility under the circumstances it can

be there are their business needs to be able to, again, they're probably have to be a little bit more verbal on the intake, you know, of like, okay, what kind of materials would you like to look at? What are your columns or

what kind of what material materials, you

know, like, because sometimes just looking at art can be helpful to, you know, sure, and having that person maybe dictate something that they want to see. And you help facilitate that too, because I mean, we have it the art route. round as well, if we need to use it.

And so then, you know, I guess through that process of thinking about those things, talking about those things describing those things. What was the what is the benefit? Is it? Is it okay, let's, let's get our minds off of all this stuff. And let's think about something more creative. Is it time diagnosis? Is it? Is it all the above? Would it be

all the above, you know, it really just is individualized to the person. And also, I just thought of another idea to you that you can use with a paraplegic would be like to help them create a collage, you know, and looking through magazines and other materials to create something that way too.

Okay. Tell me more about what you What's your thinking as far as that goes like a collage? Yeah,

well, you can look through things and pick out things that are meaningful to you. It could be something that's inspirational, it could be colors, it could be shapes, it could be favorite animals, it could be, you know, some kind of symbol that, you know, speaks to your spirituality, your family, it could be anything, really,

could it be something negative, and, you know, sometimes you hear about people taking something negative, and they'll they'll have some kind of set, you know, I keep coming back to sports analogies. But but but I remember, was it the it was the 97 bulls, this wasn't a negative thing. But after the after, or maybe the 98 bulls after they finished with their championship, their second championship run, I think everybody brought something in, that was related to that season. And maybe they talked about it, and then they burned it, the idea being not necessarily that it wasn't, that wasn't a negative thing, but it was like to, to, to celebrate it and move on. But the whole point of it was it was a way for them to process something and move on to a different phase of life

cathartic kind of moment. Yeah. And that can happen to it can be something that's harder, harder emotions kind of negative that you might think, or the person might think that would be negative into the relationship or you just process and work through that too. And sometimes the artwork can be a release of that to where you can. Okay, this is a collage about this terrible thing that happened to me, these are the feelings I have, this is what I associate with it. Now I've made it now it's done and off I go move on. Sometimes that can happen and I guess now

you can kind of have the best of both worlds because you could actually, you know, take a photograph of with a phone and then have it for future reference, but still have the have whatever you get from you know, saying goodbye to whatever those feelings or those thoughts or whatever. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

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