EP 17: How Art Therapy Can Aid Recovery After Catastrophic Injuries (Part 2)

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury

or so. So is it just? Is it just painting? Are there other art forms that are involved too? So is there anything

it can be pain, it can be clay, it can be found objects and nature found objects like recycling, you know, trash so to speak. It can be tearing paper can be gluing,

there's a person thing, you know? How would a person let's say, let's look at it this way. If a person thought they would benefit from art therapy, would they need to find an art therapist,

there's two school of thoughts at this. There's some people that have gone to school to get their masters specifically in art therapy. There's some people that have gone to get an expressive art therapy degree. And there's some people who are mental health professionals who use our as a tool. And there's some people in the art therapy perspective, who are like, Oh, the people who are using art really don't understand everything about it, they haven't learned about modalities and all of the different information about the materials and what can do what and what can be harmful maybe or to a client not harmful, like in the way that they would be traumatized. But maybe they don't need to cry. And they're using material that would release emotions when they need to maybe be calm or something like that. But my philosophy about it is if anyone is seeking help and needs healing, utilize what you have. But if you really want a person that knows what they're doing, specifically with our therapy, I would recommend going to an art therapist who actually has that training,

before they actually, you know, contacted an art therapist, you know what it sounds like, if I if I put myself in that person's person's position, I'm thinking, Alright, I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if I want to do this. I don't know if this is good idea. But what I probably could do is I could probably ask, you know, my wife, or my husband, or my mother or whatever, or my friend, next time they're at CVS, pick up some supplies, let me see if I can do this. And let me see if this has any benefit to me. And then and then maybe, you know, go to the kitchen table and do something. And if I got some good feelings or felt like it was it helped me process something. No, maybe I'll do it again. And if not, absolutely, you know, is that a reasonable first step or? No,

I think so. I mean, it just like journaling and journaling can be helpful for people. You also when at least for me, when I've worked with clients, and people call, like there's an interview process on the phone before they even come into the office, you know, where they get to ask questions. I kind of see what they what they're thinking. And again, I get the question about the creativity. And I think once they're in my office and around art materials and see how simple it can be that that anxiety is alleviated. And then for some people it doesn't, it isn't what they need, right. But at least they know that they know they've tried it and you know, there's no harm in that they're trying to figure out what works for them.

So you talked about there's two different schools of thought you said one school of thought is like, you know, art therapy is, is helpful and critical and important. And then there was another school of thought that sort of didn't think it was as valuable as

still valuable. It's just people who are utilizing art don't have the background of the training. Okay, now you have one can I mean art is art. Right. So, you know, my recollection

is that your background, your education, your experiences in both counseling and art therapy? Okay, so, so you could go back and forth from talking to people about traditional Catholic counseling, medicines, processing these kinds of things and more of a clinical environment, or going over and helping somebody through our therapies. Am I saying that correctly? Absolutely.

I mean, it's sometimes even a client, you know, one time that we'll be working on an art project next time we're processing and verbally and we're talking about it, you know, I use a combination of both.

Okay, so have have each of these things been helpful in different ways? Or is some people were more responsive to one than the other? Or? Or is it? Is it to go back and forth on an individual client?

Absolutely. And what works best for them because there are some clients who, you know, they'll be quiet while they're working on something. And then there's other clients who are talking the whole time while they're creating. And there's some clients who were like, I don't even want to create anything today. I just want to talk or I want to talk about the thing that I worked on last week, I had these thoughts, these feelings. This is what came up from that.

Or there's some people that say, Hey, I don't want to talk today. I just want to create. So one of the things that comes to my mind when you're just Robin, this is I'm like, okay, you know, I think a lot what I know, a lot of my personal clients really tend to discount and play down downplay the mental health injury that is produced by a serious physical injury. You know, and it's, it's like, they feel like that's weakness for them to acknowledge that that, okay, my body is hurt, and they just want to say No, I'm okay, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, which I admire, you know, that, that that determination. But I've, I feel like that, that that's not acknowledging No part of this process, which is a mental health injury that has to be addressed.

Because you know, when you've had a traumatic experience, it affects your brain, your lymphatic, your Olympic your Olympic system, I'm not saying that we're right. And you need to acknowledge that. And trauma can also be kind of stuck in the body, and it does affect your body, and it can affect your health. And if you're not, in a place where you, you know, can accept that, that might be one of the goals that you could work towards. But I definitely feel like the mental health component of having anything that's been, you know, significantly. A change or, you know, in your life can help.

We always tell people that after, and this is, after any kind of injury, we say, you sit quietly in a room and go over yourself head to toe, and try to figure out, you know, what hurts what's bothering bothering you, and what's your body's telling you in terms of your injuries, because a lot of times adrenaline will mask something, pain medication will mask something, or you know, your leg is broken. So that doesn't that conceals the fact that your elbow is sprained, right, because you're so focused on this thing that is a bigger deal. So we want people to sort of think about that, from top to bottom. And then above it, but now that you mentioned, it seems like sure, yeah. Right. So our goal is to help people recover physically, financially, emotionally, and, and as we're, as we're thinking about this, what I'm thinking is, there probably should be a, a mental health, you know, for for, you know, if somebody gets rear ended on Market Street in their back hurts, or rear ended on Independence Boulevard in Charlotte, this, that's probably this is probably not, you know, what we're talking about, but it was somebody has a permanent injury that affects their ability to do things and their relationships and those types of things and their ability to provide for their families, then then I think that we have to do some type of mental health, where does this fit in the mental health assessment package is somebody going to is somebody going to, would a person go to a mental health facility, and they would screen and they would recommend art therapy are they gonna have to find this on their own,

they'd have to find it on their own. You can, there's an art therapy, American Art Therapy Association website, that will list art therapists in the area, you can go to Psychology Today, and research art therapists and come up with names. The tricky part about it is some insurances will accept it. And some don't, sometimes it's self pay. Most art therapists that I know, across the country on sliding scales, sometimes there's group group therapy sessions, too, that can be in the community that are a little, you know, more efficient, cost wise. And that's kind of the process you go to. Sometimes another mental health professional might know of an art therapist in the area, and then refer out with that in conjunction with, you know, a traditional therapist, as well. It depends on where you are, you know, and in larger city, there's definitely more resources and places and groups that might have a little bit of a variety of mental health professionals in one office or one group practice or something like that. I can

imagine that this would be something that could be done remotely, right. Like in other words, if you're in a rural area of somewhere in the US or whatever, you could probably access an art therapist, just about anywhere in the world

and, and that some of my colleagues from graduate school, but they do only remote. And that's just you know, a little bit different of an organization process of making sure that your client gets the list of art supplies. You know, that's really the only difference and, you know, obviously the technology component of being able to be on Zoom or some kind of, you know, something like that. So

just to walk through that process. It might look like okay, you contacted what was this like, what's the process look like? For a person who's working on somebody in their town, maybe they Maybe they think this would be beneficial. Some of the Google art therapists near me, they find somebody, they make an appointment. What does that process? How does that process work from there?

Are you talking about just for remote or first

just, I mean, in your town, and then second remote. So

be at first in your town, you research, you find a name, you make a phone call, probably will call you back certain session, right? And that again, though, you know, get some general information, you know about what's going on. And that is, the first step is making an appointment. There's some paperwork, you know, like any other time you go see a professional, medical or mental health, where there's other questions where the therapist can get to know the client a little bit more to have a general idea. And then that intake process of that first session is a lot of talking and getting to know the person and what, you know, what are their goals? Why are they here? What's the outcomes that they might want? What you know, what do they need to work on. And then after that, our therapists would develop some therapeutic goals, and then the next session would be moving on those goals. For me, the first session with clients, I still do some sort of activity, art activity, even if it's just for like, relaxation. Sure,

yeah. And I imagine that they're kind of thinking, this is what we're gonna do. I'm

here to paint or whatever, you know, and you talk about that too, on the phone, like, what do you think art therapy is, so that you can kind of, you know, hopefully, guide this, if they have any misconceptions, either expectations can be realistic. And then like for the remote situation, most therapists will say that they do remote counseling. And same thing, you make the phone call, and in depending on the person, the art therapist, they may have a quick zoom to meet real quick, and then go over guidelines of what to expect. And these are the supplies you might need. These are the times we're going to meet some and sometimes there's like homework where they may have them do something and then show them the next appointment. That would be via zoom. Something,

you mentioned therapeutic goals, give me an example of some therapeutic goals that might be reasonable, under the circumstances,

say that someone's having ruminating thoughts about let's say, an accident, or a injury, and they miss all they're thinking about. So you know, they're having anxiety, they can't sleep, they can't eat, it's really impacting their day to day life, that would a therapeutic goal would be like, okay, within four sessions, anxiety will be alleviated from a 10 to a six, or we can think about it without the have the client, think about it without having this major, you know, emotional response in the body. So that would be a therapeutic goal. Another one could be, let's say it's a loss, like a death or something like that. It can be, you know, working through the feelings first establishing coping mechanisms. It can even be having some goals of like, okay, I'm isolating, I now need to kind of get out and live my life, you can kind of incorporate those types of goals with in the session, and with the art too.

So I remember 60 minutes, Bruce Springsteen, like 20 years ago, sets have been on there and the guy was like, so you're seeing a therapist, and he was kind of like trying to, you know, expose them or whatever. And he's like, yeah, and then he says, I think everybody would benefit.

Every single person on earth would benefit from going to a therapist, it's a safe place where you have no judgment. You know, there's, you can talk about anything and everything. Or, you know, in the art world or therapy world, you can draw anything you want to to as well, or paint or create, or rip up or whatever,

you know, is there. Are there protections from disclosing any of that information in your world?

It sure is the same as any other mental health profession, there's no confidentiality agreement, and they in that something they would sign to. Yeah, what they tell me is what they tell me. And there's, you know, there's some exceptions, if someone's getting hurt or abused or something like that plan

to do something hurt somebody else in the future themselves. But otherwise, that's still

talked about, like, it's not like, Oh, you're having some suicidal thoughts. I mean, just go ahead and call somebody or let's come at you or like this, get another screening, like our local ER or something. It's something that you still have a conversation with and still process that too. Right. So

So one of the things that occurs to me is, you know, that people might hear this and they might think, oh, Again, I have these clients that are like, okay, my physical stuff is, but my mental health is okay, I'm fine. What I'm thinking is, how can it hurt? Right? I mean, you're dealing with something that's that's traumatic, you're dealing with something that is, that is causing stress, causing anxiety, causing fear, causing frustration, causing anger, causing agitation, causing you to not be able to sleep affecting your relationships. These are the signs that you need to have see a therapist and talk to him about something right, you

would point out those things, you know, are you having trouble sleeping? How's your appetite? You know, how are you feeling out in public? How are you feeling alone? And it's just kind of part of the therapy process could be bringing awareness to that. Yeah, you know, maybe I'm not at my best. Maybe I do need help. I maybe I do would like to sleep a little more. Yeah, I'm not actually eating. And I'm isolating myself, for my family, my friends. I mean, it's just bringing that mindfulness can be helpful, too.

So so my question is, how can it hurt? So is, in your experience? Have you ever seen this art therapy be harmful to anybody?

In my experience? I can't imagine how it could be. I mean, I, I have not ever heard of it, harming anyone. You know, some people might not like it, you know, want to be for them? Correct. It might not be for them. Or they're, you know, just having a difficult time trying to express something and they're like, I'd rather go run I'd rather journal I'd rather read. I'd rather do yoga, I'd rather do meditation, I mean, rather go to church, you know, okay, it's okay to but if you don't try it, and you're not willing to open yourself up to see if it's something that would work for you, you know, you won't know. So

So you bring up initially point I was done. But but but but you brought up something that's interesting. What other kinds of if, let's say that they tried art therapy, and it wasn't for them. You mentioned yoga, meditation running, or there are other things. So I'm trying to figure out if we should have other guests and you know, that makes sense. Meditation, yoga, running. So what are there other activities that you think can be therapeutic under these circumstances?

Sure, some of those that you just said that you wrote down, those are important. I think having a huge, not a huge but a trusted support system. There can be support groups, there can be social groups, that have other people that have had a similar experience that can be helpful. And that might not be as to some people as serious as like going into therapy. You know, some people garden or just want to look at plants, you know, cooking is another form that helps. Like, to me it's an art art form, but that can be therapeutic. And help. Mentioned yoga exercise, being out in nature. That makes a big one, finding whatever can ground you. Swimming.

Yeah, in any form of exercise, it seems to be like, the commonality here is what funding something that you will enjoy doing that will take your mind off of the negative components of what you're dealing with, and give you some space to process and to

space to process space to express it space to release it. Space to

maybe be grateful for what you do have absolutely

can all those things can help. Okay.

Well, CJ, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And I think that this is going to help a lot of people. So thank you. My

pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Welcome to the catastrophic comeback podcast with American Injury Lawyer Clark speaks, helping you find hope, purpose and joy after a catastrophic injury

or so. So is it just? Is it just painting? Are there other art forms that are involved too? So is there anything

it can be pain, it can be clay, it can be found objects and nature found objects like recycling, you know, trash so to speak. It can be tearing paper can be gluing,

there's a person thing, you know? How would a person let's say, let's look at it this way. If a person thought they would benefit from art therapy, would they need to find an art therapist,

there's two school of thoughts at this. There's some people that have gone to school to get their masters specifically in art therapy. There's some people that have gone to get an expressive art therapy degree. And there's some people who are mental health professionals who use our as a tool. And there's some people in the art therapy perspective, who are like, Oh, the people who are using art really don't understand everything about it, they haven't learned about modalities and all of the different information about the materials and what can do what and what can be harmful maybe or to a client not harmful, like in the way that they would be traumatized. But maybe they don't need to cry. And they're using material that would release emotions when they need to maybe be calm or something like that. But my philosophy about it is if anyone is seeking help and needs healing, utilize what you have. But if you really want a person that knows what they're doing, specifically with our therapy, I would recommend going to an art therapist who actually has that training,

before they actually, you know, contacted an art therapist, you know what it sounds like, if I if I put myself in that person's person's position, I'm thinking, Alright, I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if I want to do this. I don't know if this is good idea. But what I probably could do is I could probably ask, you know, my wife, or my husband, or my mother or whatever, or my friend, next time they're at CVS, pick up some supplies, let me see if I can do this. And let me see if this has any benefit to me. And then and then maybe, you know, go to the kitchen table and do something. And if I got some good feelings or felt like it was it helped me process something. No, maybe I'll do it again. And if not, absolutely, you know, is that a reasonable first step or? No,

I think so. I mean, it just like journaling and journaling can be helpful for people. You also when at least for me, when I've worked with clients, and people call, like there's an interview process on the phone before they even come into the office, you know, where they get to ask questions. I kind of see what they what they're thinking. And again, I get the question about the creativity. And I think once they're in my office and around art materials and see how simple it can be that that anxiety is alleviated. And then for some people it doesn't, it isn't what they need, right. But at least they know that they know they've tried it and you know, there's no harm in that they're trying to figure out what works for them.

So you talked about there's two different schools of thought you said one school of thought is like, you know, art therapy is, is helpful and critical and important. And then there was another school of thought that sort of didn't think it was as valuable as

still valuable. It's just people who are utilizing art don't have the background of the training. Okay, now you have one can I mean art is art. Right. So, you know, my recollection

is that your background, your education, your experiences in both counseling and art therapy? Okay, so, so you could go back and forth from talking to people about traditional Catholic counseling, medicines, processing these kinds of things and more of a clinical environment, or going over and helping somebody through our therapies. Am I saying that correctly? Absolutely.

I mean, it's sometimes even a client, you know, one time that we'll be working on an art project next time we're processing and verbally and we're talking about it, you know, I use a combination of both.

Okay, so have have each of these things been helpful in different ways? Or is some people were more responsive to one than the other? Or? Or is it? Is it to go back and forth on an individual client?

Absolutely. And what works best for them because there are some clients who, you know, they'll be quiet while they're working on something. And then there's other clients who are talking the whole time while they're creating. And there's some clients who were like, I don't even want to create anything today. I just want to talk or I want to talk about the thing that I worked on last week, I had these thoughts, these feelings. This is what came up from that.

Or there's some people that say, Hey, I don't want to talk today. I just want to create. So one of the things that comes to my mind when you're just Robin, this is I'm like, okay, you know, I think a lot what I know, a lot of my personal clients really tend to discount and play down downplay the mental health injury that is produced by a serious physical injury. You know, and it's, it's like, they feel like that's weakness for them to acknowledge that that, okay, my body is hurt, and they just want to say No, I'm okay, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, which I admire, you know, that, that that determination. But I've, I feel like that, that that's not acknowledging No part of this process, which is a mental health injury that has to be addressed.

Because you know, when you've had a traumatic experience, it affects your brain, your lymphatic, your Olympic your Olympic system, I'm not saying that we're right. And you need to acknowledge that. And trauma can also be kind of stuck in the body, and it does affect your body, and it can affect your health. And if you're not, in a place where you, you know, can accept that, that might be one of the goals that you could work towards. But I definitely feel like the mental health component of having anything that's been, you know, significantly. A change or, you know, in your life can help.

We always tell people that after, and this is, after any kind of injury, we say, you sit quietly in a room and go over yourself head to toe, and try to figure out, you know, what hurts what's bothering bothering you, and what's your body's telling you in terms of your injuries, because a lot of times adrenaline will mask something, pain medication will mask something, or you know, your leg is broken. So that doesn't that conceals the fact that your elbow is sprained, right, because you're so focused on this thing that is a bigger deal. So we want people to sort of think about that, from top to bottom. And then above it, but now that you mentioned, it seems like sure, yeah. Right. So our goal is to help people recover physically, financially, emotionally, and, and as we're, as we're thinking about this, what I'm thinking is, there probably should be a, a mental health, you know, for for, you know, if somebody gets rear ended on Market Street in their back hurts, or rear ended on Independence Boulevard in Charlotte, this, that's probably this is probably not, you know, what we're talking about, but it was somebody has a permanent injury that affects their ability to do things and their relationships and those types of things and their ability to provide for their families, then then I think that we have to do some type of mental health, where does this fit in the mental health assessment package is somebody going to is somebody going to, would a person go to a mental health facility, and they would screen and they would recommend art therapy are they gonna have to find this on their own,

they'd have to find it on their own. You can, there's an art therapy, American Art Therapy Association website, that will list art therapists in the area, you can go to Psychology Today, and research art therapists and come up with names. The tricky part about it is some insurances will accept it. And some don't, sometimes it's self pay. Most art therapists that I know, across the country on sliding scales, sometimes there's group group therapy sessions, too, that can be in the community that are a little, you know, more efficient, cost wise. And that's kind of the process you go to. Sometimes another mental health professional might know of an art therapist in the area, and then refer out with that in conjunction with, you know, a traditional therapist, as well. It depends on where you are, you know, and in larger city, there's definitely more resources and places and groups that might have a little bit of a variety of mental health professionals in one office or one group practice or something like that. I can

imagine that this would be something that could be done remotely, right. Like in other words, if you're in a rural area of somewhere in the US or whatever, you could probably access an art therapist, just about anywhere in the world

and, and that some of my colleagues from graduate school, but they do only remote. And that's just you know, a little bit different of an organization process of making sure that your client gets the list of art supplies. You know, that's really the only difference and, you know, obviously the technology component of being able to be on Zoom or some kind of, you know, something like that. So

just to walk through that process. It might look like okay, you contacted what was this like, what's the process look like? For a person who's working on somebody in their town, maybe they Maybe they think this would be beneficial. Some of the Google art therapists near me, they find somebody, they make an appointment. What does that process? How does that process work from there?

Are you talking about just for remote or first

just, I mean, in your town, and then second remote. So

be at first in your town, you research, you find a name, you make a phone call, probably will call you back certain session, right? And that again, though, you know, get some general information, you know about what's going on. And that is, the first step is making an appointment. There's some paperwork, you know, like any other time you go see a professional, medical or mental health, where there's other questions where the therapist can get to know the client a little bit more to have a general idea. And then that intake process of that first session is a lot of talking and getting to know the person and what, you know, what are their goals? Why are they here? What's the outcomes that they might want? What you know, what do they need to work on. And then after that, our therapists would develop some therapeutic goals, and then the next session would be moving on those goals. For me, the first session with clients, I still do some sort of activity, art activity, even if it's just for like, relaxation. Sure,

yeah. And I imagine that they're kind of thinking, this is what we're gonna do. I'm

here to paint or whatever, you know, and you talk about that too, on the phone, like, what do you think art therapy is, so that you can kind of, you know, hopefully, guide this, if they have any misconceptions, either expectations can be realistic. And then like for the remote situation, most therapists will say that they do remote counseling. And same thing, you make the phone call, and in depending on the person, the art therapist, they may have a quick zoom to meet real quick, and then go over guidelines of what to expect. And these are the supplies you might need. These are the times we're going to meet some and sometimes there's like homework where they may have them do something and then show them the next appointment. That would be via zoom. Something,

you mentioned therapeutic goals, give me an example of some therapeutic goals that might be reasonable, under the circumstances,

say that someone's having ruminating thoughts about let's say, an accident, or a injury, and they miss all they're thinking about. So you know, they're having anxiety, they can't sleep, they can't eat, it's really impacting their day to day life, that would a therapeutic goal would be like, okay, within four sessions, anxiety will be alleviated from a 10 to a six, or we can think about it without the have the client, think about it without having this major, you know, emotional response in the body. So that would be a therapeutic goal. Another one could be, let's say it's a loss, like a death or something like that. It can be, you know, working through the feelings first establishing coping mechanisms. It can even be having some goals of like, okay, I'm isolating, I now need to kind of get out and live my life, you can kind of incorporate those types of goals with in the session, and with the art too.

So I remember 60 minutes, Bruce Springsteen, like 20 years ago, sets have been on there and the guy was like, so you're seeing a therapist, and he was kind of like trying to, you know, expose them or whatever. And he's like, yeah, and then he says, I think everybody would benefit.

Every single person on earth would benefit from going to a therapist, it's a safe place where you have no judgment. You know, there's, you can talk about anything and everything. Or, you know, in the art world or therapy world, you can draw anything you want to to as well, or paint or create, or rip up or whatever,

you know, is there. Are there protections from disclosing any of that information in your world?

It sure is the same as any other mental health profession, there's no confidentiality agreement, and they in that something they would sign to. Yeah, what they tell me is what they tell me. And there's, you know, there's some exceptions, if someone's getting hurt or abused or something like that plan

to do something hurt somebody else in the future themselves. But otherwise, that's still

talked about, like, it's not like, Oh, you're having some suicidal thoughts. I mean, just go ahead and call somebody or let's come at you or like this, get another screening, like our local ER or something. It's something that you still have a conversation with and still process that too. Right. So

So one of the things that occurs to me is, you know, that people might hear this and they might think, oh, Again, I have these clients that are like, okay, my physical stuff is, but my mental health is okay, I'm fine. What I'm thinking is, how can it hurt? Right? I mean, you're dealing with something that's that's traumatic, you're dealing with something that is, that is causing stress, causing anxiety, causing fear, causing frustration, causing anger, causing agitation, causing you to not be able to sleep affecting your relationships. These are the signs that you need to have see a therapist and talk to him about something right, you

would point out those things, you know, are you having trouble sleeping? How's your appetite? You know, how are you feeling out in public? How are you feeling alone? And it's just kind of part of the therapy process could be bringing awareness to that. Yeah, you know, maybe I'm not at my best. Maybe I do need help. I maybe I do would like to sleep a little more. Yeah, I'm not actually eating. And I'm isolating myself, for my family, my friends. I mean, it's just bringing that mindfulness can be helpful, too.

So so my question is, how can it hurt? So is, in your experience? Have you ever seen this art therapy be harmful to anybody?

In my experience? I can't imagine how it could be. I mean, I, I have not ever heard of it, harming anyone. You know, some people might not like it, you know, want to be for them? Correct. It might not be for them. Or they're, you know, just having a difficult time trying to express something and they're like, I'd rather go run I'd rather journal I'd rather read. I'd rather do yoga, I'd rather do meditation, I mean, rather go to church, you know, okay, it's okay to but if you don't try it, and you're not willing to open yourself up to see if it's something that would work for you, you know, you won't know. So

So you bring up initially point I was done. But but but but you brought up something that's interesting. What other kinds of if, let's say that they tried art therapy, and it wasn't for them. You mentioned yoga, meditation running, or there are other things. So I'm trying to figure out if we should have other guests and you know, that makes sense. Meditation, yoga, running. So what are there other activities that you think can be therapeutic under these circumstances?

Sure, some of those that you just said that you wrote down, those are important. I think having a huge, not a huge but a trusted support system. There can be support groups, there can be social groups, that have other people that have had a similar experience that can be helpful. And that might not be as to some people as serious as like going into therapy. You know, some people garden or just want to look at plants, you know, cooking is another form that helps. Like, to me it's an art art form, but that can be therapeutic. And help. Mentioned yoga exercise, being out in nature. That makes a big one, finding whatever can ground you. Swimming.

Yeah, in any form of exercise, it seems to be like, the commonality here is what funding something that you will enjoy doing that will take your mind off of the negative components of what you're dealing with, and give you some space to process and to

space to process space to express it space to release it. Space to

maybe be grateful for what you do have absolutely

can all those things can help. Okay.

Well, CJ, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And I think that this is going to help a lot of people. So thank you. My

pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.